Discussion:
Dump or what?
(too old to reply)
BlueDice
2018-03-30 21:32:47 UTC
Permalink
XGID=--bCB-BBC--A----bbbbbBab--:0:0:1:52:0:0:0:0:10

X:Player 1 O:Player 2
Score is X:0 O:0. Unlimited Game
+13-14-15-16-17-18------19-20-21-22-23-24-+
| O O O | | O O X O O |
| O O O | | O O X O |
| | | |
| | | |
| | | |
| |BAR| |
| | | |
| | | |
| X | | X |
| X X | | X X X O |
| X X X | | X X X O |
+12-11-10--9--8--7-------6--5--4--3--2--1-+
Pip count X: 120 O: 123 X-O: 0-0
Cube: 1
X to play 52
--
BD
Paul
2018-03-30 23:51:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by BlueDice
XGID=--bCB-BBC--A----bbbbbBab--:0:0:1:52:0:0:0:0:10
X:Player 1 O:Player 2
Score is X:0 O:0. Unlimited Game
+13-14-15-16-17-18------19-20-21-22-23-24-+
| O O O | | O O X O O |
| O O O | | O O X O |
| | | |
| | | |
| | | |
| |BAR| |
| | | |
| | | |
| X | | X |
| X X | | X X X O |
| X X X | | X X X O |
+12-11-10--9--8--7-------6--5--4--3--2--1-+
Pip count X: 120 O: 123 X-O: 0-0
Cube: 1
X to play 52
11/4 to put spares in place to attack on the deuce when O leaves.
"No, don't dump it! Thump it!" is the ad jingle for this problem.

8/1 seems a little bit miserable (and a little bit rock and roll).
11/4 is by far my favourite play.

Paul
Tim Chow
2018-03-31 00:37:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by BlueDice
XGID=--bCB-BBC--A----bbbbbBab--:0:0:1:52:0:0:0:0:10
X:Player 1 O:Player 2
Score is X:0 O:0. Unlimited Game
+13-14-15-16-17-18------19-20-21-22-23-24-+
| O O O | | O O X O O |
| O O O | | O O X O |
| | | |
| | | |
| | | |
| |BAR| |
| | | |
| | | |
| X | | X |
| X X | | X X X O |
| X X X | | X X X O |
+12-11-10--9--8--7-------6--5--4--3--2--1-+
Pip count X: 120 O: 123 X-O: 0-0
Cube: 1
X to play 52
For me the choice is between 11/6 8/6 and 11/6 3/1, since 11/4 creates a
dilly builder for no good reason and 8/1 seems worse than 11/6 3/1. On
the principle that dumping blots behind an anchor tends to be weak when
there is a plausible alternative, I'll try 11/6 8/6.

---
Tim Chow
j***@gmail.com
2018-03-31 13:27:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by BlueDice
XGID=--bCB-BBC--A----bbbbbBab--:0:0:1:52:0:0:0:0:10
X:Player 1 O:Player 2
Score is X:0 O:0. Unlimited Game
+13-14-15-16-17-18------19-20-21-22-23-24-+
| O O O | | O O X O O |
| O O O | | O O X O |
| | | |
| | | |
| | | |
| |BAR| |
| | | |
| | | |
| X | | X |
| X X | | X X X O |
| X X X | | X X X O |
+12-11-10--9--8--7-------6--5--4--3--2--1-+
Pip count X: 120 O: 123 X-O: 0-0
Cube: 1
X to play 52
--
BD
I'm surprised people aren't seeing the merits to 3/1.

Stick
Michael
2018-03-31 14:00:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by BlueDice
XGID=--bCB-BBC--A----bbbbbBab--:0:0:1:52:0:0:0:0:10
X:Player 1 O:Player 2
Score is X:0 O:0. Unlimited Game
+13-14-15-16-17-18------19-20-21-22-23-24-+
| O O O | | O O X O O |
| O O O | | O O X O |
| | | |
| | | |
| | | |
| |BAR| |
| | | |
| | | |
| X | | X |
| X X | | X X X O |
| X X X | | X X X O |
+12-11-10--9--8--7-------6--5--4--3--2--1-+
Pip count X: 120 O: 123 X-O: 0-0
Cube: 1
X to play 52
--
BD
Yes dump one checker with 3/1 11/6.
We need to make the 5 point or build a stronger board for the time she would attempt to run.
On the other hand it doesn't look that easy for us to run from the other side even if she won't roll a 3 next roll. Maye we would roll big doubles though
BlueDice
2018-03-31 15:31:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Michael
Post by BlueDice
XGID=--bCB-BBC--A----bbbbbBab--:0:0:1:52:0:0:0:0:10
X:Player 1 O:Player 2
Score is X:0 O:0. Unlimited Game
+13-14-15-16-17-18------19-20-21-22-23-24-+
| O O O | | O O X O O |
| O O O | | O O X O |
| | | |
| | | |
| | | |
| |BAR| |
| | | |
| | | |
| X | | X |
| X X | | X X X O |
| X X X | | X X X O |
+12-11-10--9--8--7-------6--5--4--3--2--1-+
Pip count X: 120 O: 123 X-O: 0-0
Cube: 1
X to play 52
--
BD
Yes dump one checker with 3/1 11/6.
We need to make the 5 point or build a stronger board for the time she would attempt to run.
On the other hand it doesn't look that easy for us to run from the other side even if she won't roll a 3 next roll. Maye we would roll big doubles though
I think we are all agreed with 11/6
Then is it 8/6 or 3/1?
3/1 makes the 5 point more often
11/6 leaves more builders for attacking a lone blot on the deuce after she runs.
What am I missing?
--
BD
p***@gmail.com
2018-03-31 15:53:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by BlueDice
Post by Michael
Post by BlueDice
XGID=--bCB-BBC--A----bbbbbBab--:0:0:1:52:0:0:0:0:10
X:Player 1 O:Player 2
Score is X:0 O:0. Unlimited Game
+13-14-15-16-17-18------19-20-21-22-23-24-+
| O O O | | O O X O O |
| O O O | | O O X O |
| | | |
| | | |
| | | |
| |BAR| |
| | | |
| | | |
| X | | X |
| X X | | X X X O |
| X X X | | X X X O |
+12-11-10--9--8--7-------6--5--4--3--2--1-+
Pip count X: 120 O: 123 X-O: 0-0
Cube: 1
X to play 52
--
BD
Yes dump one checker with 3/1 11/6.
We need to make the 5 point or build a stronger board for the time she would attempt to run.
On the other hand it doesn't look that easy for us to run from the other side even if she won't roll a 3 next roll. Maye we would roll big doubles though
I think we are all agreed with 11/6
Then is it 8/6 or 3/1?
3/1 makes the 5 point more often
11/6 leaves more builders for attacking a lone blot on the deuce after she runs.
What am I missing?
That's a very easy question. What you're missing is the statement of
your preferred play.

Paul
p***@gmail.com
2018-03-31 15:54:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by p***@gmail.com
Post by BlueDice
Post by Michael
Post by BlueDice
XGID=--bCB-BBC--A----bbbbbBab--:0:0:1:52:0:0:0:0:10
X:Player 1 O:Player 2
Score is X:0 O:0. Unlimited Game
+13-14-15-16-17-18------19-20-21-22-23-24-+
| O O O | | O O X O O |
| O O O | | O O X O |
| | | |
| | | |
| | | |
| |BAR| |
| | | |
| | | |
| X | | X |
| X X | | X X X O |
| X X X | | X X X O |
+12-11-10--9--8--7-------6--5--4--3--2--1-+
Pip count X: 120 O: 123 X-O: 0-0
Cube: 1
X to play 52
--
BD
Yes dump one checker with 3/1 11/6.
We need to make the 5 point or build a stronger board for the time she would attempt to run.
On the other hand it doesn't look that easy for us to run from the other side even if she won't roll a 3 next roll. Maye we would roll big doubles though
I think we are all agreed with 11/6
Then is it 8/6 or 3/1?
3/1 makes the 5 point more often
11/6 leaves more builders for attacking a lone blot on the deuce after she runs.
What am I missing?
That's a very easy question. What you're missing is the statement of
your preferred play.
Oh, sorry. You posed the problem, so you're not a solver.

Paul
Tim Chow
2018-03-31 20:24:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by BlueDice
I think we are all agreed with 11/6
Then is it 8/6 or 3/1?
3/1 makes the 5 point more often
11/6 leaves more builders for attacking a lone blot on the deuce after she runs.
What am I missing?
Well, the disadvantage of 8/6 is that it's less flexible.

The checker on the 3pt can be used to attack a blot on the deuce point
but it's not a very effective attacker because it's a dilly builder.

---
Tim Chow
BlueDice
2018-03-31 22:04:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tim Chow
Post by BlueDice
I think we are all agreed with 11/6
Then is it 8/6 or 3/1?
3/1 makes the 5 point more often
11/6 leaves more builders for attacking a lone blot on the deuce after she runs.
What am I missing?
Well, the disadvantage of 8/6 is that it's less flexible.
The checker on the 3pt can be used to attack a blot on the deuce point
but it's not a very effective attacker because it's a dilly builder.
---
Tim Chow
"but it's not a very effective attacker because it's a dilly builder."
It's obviously of limited effectiveness, but better than not being there at all.
"because it's <called> a dilly builder" does not explain anything.
--
BD
Tim Chow
2018-04-01 17:44:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by BlueDice
"because it's <called> a dilly builder" does not explain anything.
Why do you say that? The reason dilly builders are ineffective is because
they have limited range and even if you use them to make a point in front,
the point is of limited value because of the gap on the higher point.

---
Tim Chow
BlueDice
2018-04-01 18:08:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tim Chow
Post by BlueDice
"because it's <called> a dilly builder" does not explain anything.
Why do you say that? The reason dilly builders are ineffective is because
they have limited range and even if you use them to make a point in front,
the point is of limited value because of the gap on the higher point.
---
Tim Chow
Now you have explained what a 'dilly builder means' (I wasn't sure at all) what you said makes sense. When I read your comment I transposed it to: "it's ineffective because it's ineffective"
So thanks for your input. Hope it didn't come across as me being picky.
If it did then I apologise.
--
BD
m***@compuplus.net
2018-04-02 08:24:02 UTC
Permalink
the point is of limited value because of the gap....
It's been more than two days since the original post
and you haven't posted your rollousturbating results??

BTW: questions like "dump? or what?" confuse the bots.

Try to ask more creative questions (like Chows') with
clearer alternatives such as "dump? or jump?", "dump?
or hump?", "stump? or clump?", etc... :)

MK
Michael
2018-04-01 11:49:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by BlueDice
I think we are all agreed with 11/6
Then is it 8/6 or 3/1?
3/1 makes the 5 point more often
11/6 leaves more builders for attacking a lone blot on the deuce after she runs.
What am I missing?
--
BD
I think you are missing the importance of making the 5 point.If you manage that then you can run one back checker with almost nothing to worry.

Probably the attacking potential is higher with 8/6 though ... I am not sure.. depends what the rollouts will say, if a small difference between the 2 plays then surely that would confirm that 8/6 is better for an attack.
BlueDice
2018-04-02 08:53:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by BlueDice
XGID=--bCB-BBC--A----bbbbbBab--:0:0:1:52:0:0:0:0:10
X:Player 1 O:Player 2
Score is X:0 O:0. Unlimited Game
+13-14-15-16-17-18------19-20-21-22-23-24-+
| O O O | | O O X O O |
| O O O | | O O X O |
| | | |
| | | |
| | | |
| |BAR| |
| | | |
| | | |
| X | | X |
| X X | | X X X O |
| X X X | | X X X O |
+12-11-10--9--8--7-------6--5--4--3--2--1-+
Pip count X: 120 O: 123 X-O: 0-0
Cube: 1
X to play 52
--
BD
XGR++ puts dumping 3/1 as best play.
What surprised me was the equity difference for 11/6 8/6

1. XG Roller++ 11/6 3/1 eq:+0.415
Player: 60.75% (G:13.49% B:0.35%)
Opponent: 39.25% (G:7.99% B:0.24%)

2. XG Roller++ 11/6 8/6 eq:+0.332 (-0.083)
Player: 58.56% (G:12.54% B:0.41%)
Opponent: 41.44% (G:8.65% B:0.25%)

3. XG Roller++ 8/1 eq:+0.261 (-0.154)
Player: 56.71% (G:13.25% B:0.37%)
Opponent: 43.29% (G:9.95% B:0.34%)

eXtreme Gammon Version: 2.10
--
BD

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